ÿþ<htmlÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<headÿþ>ÿþ<script type="text/javascript" src="https://web-static.archive.org/_static/js/bundle-playback.js?v=2N_sDSC0" charset="utf-8"></script> <script type="text/javascript" src="https://web-static.archive.org/_static/js/wombat.js?v=txqj7nKC" charset="utf-8"></script>ÿþ ÿþ<script>window.RufflePlayer=window.RufflePlayer||{};window.RufflePlayer.config={"autoplay":"on","unmuteOverlay":"hidden","showSwfDownload":true};</script> <script type="text/javascript" src="ÿþhttps://web-static.archive.org/_static/ÿþjs/ruffle/ruffle.js"></script> ÿþ<script type="text/javascript"> ÿþ __wm.init(ÿþ"https://web.archive.org/web"ÿþ); __wm.wombat(ÿþ"http://www.newsocialist.org/magazine/05/article02.html"ÿþ,ÿþ"20071012115750"ÿþ,ÿþ"https://web.archive.org/"ÿþ,ÿþ"web"ÿþ,ÿþ"https://web-static.archive.org/_static/"ÿþ, "ÿþ1192190270ÿþ"); </script> ÿþ<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="https://web-static.archive.org/_static/css/banner-styles.css?v=1utQkbB3" /> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="https://web-static.archive.org/_static/css/iconochive.css?v=3PDvdIFv" />ÿþ ÿþ<!-- End Wayback Rewrite JS Include --> ÿþ ÿþ<titleÿþ>ÿþNew Socialist Magazine, Needed: A Push For Militant Action - Interviewÿþ</title>ÿþ ÿþ<metaÿþ ÿþname="description"ÿþ ÿþcontent="New Socialist Group socialism communism socialists communists "ÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<metaÿþ ÿþname="keywords"ÿþ ÿþcontent="socialism, communism, socialists, communists, marx, marxists, marxism, Marx, Marxists, Marxism, Canada, politics, anarchism, Trotsky, trotskyism, NDP, radical, revolution, revolutionary, Lenin, leninism, leninist, Luxemburg, working class, 1917, syndicalism, radicalism, union, labour, anarchy"ÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ</head>ÿþ ÿþ<bodyÿþ ÿþtopmargin="20"ÿþ ÿþleftmargin="20"ÿþ ÿþmarginheight="20"ÿþ ÿþmarginwidth="20"ÿþ ÿþbgcolor="#FFFFFF"ÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<fontÿþ ÿþface="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"ÿþ ÿþsize="5"ÿþ ÿþcolor="#000000"ÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<centerÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþNeeded: A Push For Militant Action ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ</b>ÿþ</font>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<fontÿþ ÿþface="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"ÿþ ÿþsize="2"ÿþ ÿþcolor="#000000"ÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<iÿþ>ÿþNew Socialist Magazine, September 1996ÿþ</i>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ</center>ÿþ ÿþ<fontÿþ ÿþsize="1"ÿþ>ÿþIn the run-up to the October 25-26 Ontario Federation of Labour Days of Action in Toronto, New Socialist talked to several local activists about their thoughts on building the most effective action possible. LORRIE SIVER interviewed members of the Ontario Public Service Employees' Union Lesbian and Gay Action Committee Region 5 (an as yet unrecognized committee): ÿþ<ulÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<liÿþ>ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg Pavelichÿþ</b>ÿþ - OPSEU Local 595 - Substitute Teachers with Toronto Board of Education, Victim Assistance Program of the 519, Outspoken, Coalition for Lesbian and Gay Rights of Ontario ÿþ</li>ÿþ ÿþ<liÿþ>ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles Ngÿþ</b>ÿþ - ex-member of OPSEU, advocate in lesbian and gay community and the labour movement ÿþ</li>ÿþ ÿþ<liÿþ>ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþRobin Gordonÿþ</b>ÿþ - OPSEU Local 528 ÿþ</li>ÿþ ÿþ<liÿþ>ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþStephanie Yalcinÿþ</b>ÿþ - OPSEU Local 568 ÿþ</li>ÿþ</font>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ</ul>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþHow successful do you think the Ontario Federation of Labour days of action have been so far? ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think generally they've been pretty successful. At the beginning, they were more successful because there was a lot more building and a lot of it had to do with the fact that people wanted to make a statement. The problem with some of the later ones, I don't think they received as much of a push as the initial two in London and Hamilton. I believe it was the largest labour demonstration in the province if not the country to this point in time ever. Some of the other ones like Peterborough and Kitchener-Waterloo, suffered partially because of timing or because the publicity around it wasn't as big. I'm hoping that what will happen with Toronto is that there will be a really big push and people will see the opportunity to get right at the home turf, when I say the home turf I mean the place where the Tories are in government, the legislature. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I have a slightly different thought about that. The OFL days of action so far have been successful in the sense that in some of the cities, not all of them, they were able to shut down the city. Whereas in some of the other places there was no shutdown, the streets were operational still and people were going in to their workplaces. What I think should be happening for the upcoming Metro Days of Action in Toronto is that, seeing that Metro Toronto is the place where the bulk of the anti-Harris folks are, the OFL should take a stand in naming this rather than a Metro Days of Action for the city of Toronto, call it a provincial day of action, call it a provincial shutdown and let it be that. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think you're right but if that's not happening, I would hope that labour would use this as a push for a province-wide shut-down, province-wide general strike. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþWhat do you think Metro Labour Council and Metro Network for Social Justice are planning for Toronto and what do you think that they should be doing to make Toronto the most effective action yet ?ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ The Labour Council and Metro Network are planning for =a week of at least 4 or 5 days of actions Tuesday right through 'til the Sunday with various different groups having different things on different days, and with the focus being on Friday and Saturday, with hopefully Friday being a total shutdown of the city. We need to be very militant in order to bring the greatest pressure to bear upon this government. What needs to be done, like Charles said, is some sort of shutdown that would extend further than just Metro. Whether they use this specifically to do that or they use this as a call for a general strike I think both could be very effective. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþStephanie:ÿþ</b>ÿþ When are they doing Ottawa? If they do Ottawa then they may as well do a full Ontario shutdown. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþRobin:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I thought that if they do another one it'll be a full province. I didn't think they were going to do anymore cities after this but I could be wrong. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think it is absolutely necessary in order for a provincial shutdown to take place for labour to include the organizing of the shutdown with community groups like OCAP and MNSJ. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþYou said that Toronto should be, and we want it to be, more militant but what do you mean by militancy and how you think that we actually achieve that?ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ Well, I think what we have to do is shut as much as possible down and not let anything interfere with the shutdown and that's really, really difficult unless they really prepare people. You can't sort of do it and just say, "Okay," like some secret little thing, "we're going to do this." People get sort of bewildered, they don't know what's going on, they don't know that they're expected to carry things further. Unless people are prepared, unless you tell people what you're going to do, people could be hurt. What needs to happen is a shutdown so that every single business operating in the city, within the Metro Toronto region, would not be able to operate that day. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþThere are some suggestions that the action should be expanded, either to the Greater Toronto area, or to a provincial day of action. What reasons do you think there have been for not doing that?ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think it's a technical difficulty, figuring out how to spread people, because it is a large geographical location that you're speaking of. Unlike the other city shutdowns, they literally had entire city blocks blocked off. Whereas a Greater Toronto shutdown, it is so spread out that you really need to be able to organize to tell people where to go. Otherwise, it becomes very ineffective. So, I think that is the deterrent. Personally, I think it is not going to be as successful in terms of Metro Days of Action in spreading it out as far as places like Brampton. I think they should concentrate and shut down Bay Street, shut down King Street, where all the commerce is, where all the banks are. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþStephanie:ÿþ</b>ÿþ Where all the money is. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ They need to seek the support of TTC to shut down the entire TTC transit and also the GoTransit so that the business people that come in from out of town can not get in. That's what needs to happen in order for the Toronto Days of Action to be very successful. Stop the business people and make them listen. If people are still going into their workplaces up and down Bay Street, then it's pointless. Nothing but a big P.R. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþYou mentioned earlier the idea of involving community activists with labour. One suggestions that has come up was pinpointing community groups that deal with issues that are affected at particular workplaces, like you have welfare offices and people on welfare picketing at the same location. Is there some way that we can do a better job of that with the Metro Network for Social Justice?ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ It is important to involve the different community groups, it's difficult so far because a lot of the protest actions against each and every single thing that happens in the province gets addressed individually. So say if it's about a gay and lesbian issue, then only the gay and lesbian community gets the opportunity to become aware of the issue, not labourers; unless of course you are a gay or lesbian labour activist. A lot of communiÿþcation, a lot of education needs to happen across the board so that this divide and conquer does not happen. It's about awareness of different issues so that the different community groups get a sense of the entire picture of what the province is doing to us. As opposed to what the province is doing to us as this community group or that community group. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþRobin:ÿþ</b>ÿþ But I don't think it's just education in terms of making people aware of the issues. I think in the step before that, we need knowledge of actions that are going on, because there's so much going on all the time that even people like us who try and keep on top of everything don't know. Also, people just get logged down with it, you can't do it everyday, you can't spend every weekend at Queen's Park. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think if they do, like you said, pair up somebody who works in a welfare office with somebody who is on welfare, and having these people protesting, that's really good because it shows that those people are on the same side; that the issues affect both of them. That helps really to get at that divide and conquer sort of thing. To put people together and say we really are the same, it's those people we're fighting not each other. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþHave your locals been discussing the Days of Action yet? If so, what plans have been made?ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþRobin:ÿþ</b>ÿþ A lot of the organizing necessary is very hierarchically organized. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ That's not totally true. OPSEU has begun meeting about Metro Days of Action specifically. I think this is now going on to the third meeting. The first meeting took place in June. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think that has begun but not at the locals level. It's a lot of hierarchical stuff within labour, top down sort of stuff instead of bottom up which people should be talking about. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþWhat sorts of things could people be doing to help make it from the bottom and to help push the people at the top? ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ People need to communicate with the people within their locals how they feel and how this is affecting them and then push the leaders of their locals who can then in turn push the others. So hopefully, it will take on the characteristic of what is happening to the people in their locals. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ Tories have been in power now for some time. The people who are aware, who have been out in previous demonstrations, are the same people that are still coming out. It is those who are not coming out and still haven't been out to any that need to come out. Where are the new people? ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþStephanie:ÿþ</b>ÿþ Where's my entire office? I'm there, alone. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþWhy do you think that is? Do you think that people are demoralized? ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþStephanie:ÿþ</b>ÿþ No, I think they're more wary. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think two things, demoralization is part of it but I also think that something that the Tory government has been successful at, and I think it's terrible, is splitting people. Conquer and divide. You have a job, you're lucky and we're working for you and we're going to give you X amount back on your paycheque. Whereas these people over here, these welfare bums, we're on your side against them. What these people don't realize is how close they are to that line. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþWhat do you think the next step should be after Toronto? ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ The next step is a provincial general strike. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþRobin:ÿþ</b>ÿþ Only if they're going to organize it right. A really poorly organized provincial strike could be a major disaster. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþWould such an action really affect Harris' agenda?ÿþ</b>ÿþ ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþGreg:ÿþ</b>ÿþ If it's a general strike that's one day and that's it, then I don't know if it's going to have much of an affect. But if it starts as one day and it builds or if they keep that momentum alive in order to expand it, I think it could happen. That's the only thing I see right now within that prospect of something, dare I say, peaceful that will bring down this government. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþCharles:ÿþ</b>ÿþ I think that the Harris government has had already, some impact by the previous days of action. Although he didn't acknowledge it, the fact is when those days of action happened, the front page of the newspapers would say that it was not very successful while you look at the front page of the business section you can tell that they have lost money through that day. It has impacted on Harris because he plays up to the business folks and they are hurt every time there is any sort of strike action or shutdown action, even if it's for a couple of hours. Because that's how their bottom line works. And when that group of people is affected, Mike Harris is affected. ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ<brÿþ>ÿþ ÿþ<bÿþ>ÿþRobin:ÿþ</b>ÿþ But industry in this province can weather a day or two or three or four. What they can't weather is an actual ongoing strike and there is not the will in the labour movement in this province or even in community groups in this province to actually shut down the province for any long period of time. So I think Harris has shown incredible resilience, being able to just stand and spit at protest. And so to some degree the question is: what do you do if it's not necessarily going to be effective? But that doesn't mean that we can give up. Partly, I think that means that Harris himself is not the focus of our protest, even though that's how we frame it. The focus is actually the corporate sector but also the general population. To get the message out about where social services are disappearing, and who has precarious employment now, and how close people are to poverty. 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